Crime and Punishment in Softball

ok so what should be done to the coaches when they make a mistake??? what should be done to mom and dad when they make a mistake..... kids what should  there punishment be?... if we are a team should the coaches be made to run or be punished too???  oh yea making them do more work around the house or more chores will make them better at math.... okkkkkkkkkkkkkkk lol ........ before you start punishing look at yourself.... I believe in being accountable but you should know kids as kids and maybe that young lady just started something (monthly)  maybe on the way to the game mom and dad was chewing there butt forthe last game.. so becareful on why a kid makes a mistake.... If your a coach then you care more for the kids then about winning and loosing and that's winning and loosing about life. We will make mistakes in life but it's how we rebound from the mistake that's important not being punished and yelled at just because the coach didn't get there win to boost there ego.

When coaching  softball, the coach might feel like punishing a
distracting the player with conditioning drills and sprints. However, if
doing this tothe playeright feel there’s a relation
with being punished and doing conditioning drills. The coach wants theplayer  to have fun when focusing on conditioning activities and not
have a bad outlook on those types of activities. 

No, I was asking if you agree with the idea of an hour of ground balls
or fly balls instead of running.  Now they may not dislike running, but
how are they going to start feeling about fielding? 

My daughter's high school coach does the same thing! All the parents stand there and watch the girls run suicides or pole to pole! Last year, the team had a losing season - most of the girls did not have playing experience. Do you think the girls wanted to fail? I finally blew up and told the coaches, that the girls are in great shape but they still need to learn how field a ground ball properly! Practice fielding instead of running!!

I agree. To get the most out of a player you have to let them know you believe in them and you know they are always doing their best. Unfortunately, mistakes are made, good pitches are watched, bad pitches are swung at. But if you can make a player believe that she just had a bad day and that she will be better next time...well they usually are. I agree with practicing the problem as well. That way the player feels prepared for the next time that situation occurs. Great job again Marc!

I disagree with this post completely.  I'm sorry, but I think we've become a society that accepts mediocrity.  We are so focused on the girls' feelings, that we don't teach them that there is a consequence for their actions. 
Now I think the difference that should be stated is that there are coaches out there that are giving the girls every tool to be successful.  These coaches do know that the girls are going to make mistakes and they will probably focus on those errors during next practice.
But there is a BIG difference if the team is making errors because they are "choosing" to go out on that field and NOT hustle and play ball.  I've seen girls make the same error in the game 3 times and have had coaches say, "it's okay, good try and we'll work on it at practice".  But at the travel ball level, once is okay, brush it off, twice is a little ridiculous and the third time, she should lose her position during that game.  Obviously this girl isn't "in" the game, doesn't understand the position or isn't being coached well.
And let's face it, if there are that many errors that the coach is that upset to make them run sprints or do an immediate practice, it's because they feel that they've given the girls all the tools to play the game well.  That many errors in my opinion is a lack of heart from the girls.  And it is a TEAM sport, so everyone shares in the blame.  I don't think parents or girls realize how much time coaches put into their teams.  It's the practices, the research, the working with the different sactioning groups, dealing with parents, trying to work to the strengths of the girls, etc....I think it's disrespectful for girls to go on that field and not play ball.  And if they need a reminder that that kind of performance will not be tolerated, well, I guess the choices for the parents are find another team or not play ball. 
Again, good coaches know if an error is an error but not lack of heart or an error is because the player isn't "there" that day.

To me it is obvious it is the coaches and managers that are at fault. they are the ones to be punished and after that thown out of the game because they do not posess the right qualities to be there

when i throw, i kind of chicken wing it and i have been trying to break the habit all season. i have the same coach i had for summer ball as i do for fall ball. he wants me to work on my throwing and says that if i don't have it right by fall ball, every time i do it i have to run a lap. i am 11. should he do that?

Ken: I have a sincere question I'd like your thoughts on.  What about coaches who work with players that aspire to the next level?  The pressure in college at the DI level anyway is HUGE when you first get there!  If you are on the team you are expected to perform.  If you don't, sprints is the least of your worries.  There are MANY other girls out there working and waiting to take your spot on that team.  I've seen a number of circumstances where scholarship players are no longer on the team after one season.  Talk about gun to your head. 

I had a very high pressure high school coach so it's wasn't new, the pressure, but it was still more intense than I'd expected.

How are we as coaches preparing them for that if we don't apply any level of pressure?

I'm not talking about 12 year olds, but challenging or thinking of it from the angle that physical punishment or consequence is not a good idea at any age. 

With athletes who are in a competitive environment and are working on increasing athleticism and gain an edge, I see it as just another opportunity to get faster or stronger. 

Many are talking about punishment for lack of performance being mean. IMHO going from no consequence straight to the less playing time consequence is less merciful.

On another physical consequence note...I've seen teams where a coach gave out warm down laps to players that forgot their jacket.  Those on the team who weren't dragging the field would run along with them.  There's something awesome about having your teammates there by your side helping you through your mistake.  What happened next?  They started covering each others backs.  A bunch started bringing extra jackets to practice just in case someone forgot.  They took action to make sure that even if one of them "fell" and forgot their jacket, they were there to "pick them up" for the good of the whole team.

You need to basically ask two questions:

1. Is the punishment cruel?
2. Is it excessive?Making you players run a few sprints is not excessive nor cruel. Making then run till they puke is.

"Negative punishment is most effective when:

·        
It immediately follows a response

·        
It is applied consistently"

dBoth softball and baseball are excellent at both positive and negative reinforcement. You don't swing at the third strike you immediately are out.

 Why would a coach want to add a punishment on top of the punishment the game already gave ? And hours after thing your are punishing the player for has already happened?

Almost every coach makes their own "error" during a game either with pitch selection, to pinch or not to pinch, when to sub, change pitcher etc and I bet the ones that punish players don't run sprints or laps for that!?!?  And many of them are getting paid in the highschool level (although not much, but still?).  I agree with the "team" concept posted earlier and working on those errors in practice where it's not a punishment especially at a younger age where they are vulnerable and emotional and you'll either drive them to another sport with a good coach or to XBox and PS2 where they don't have to run sprints EVER!  Sprints and laps are for conditioning and only a handful of kids get motivation out of them.  Plus there isn't a sprint in the world that helps your hitting otherwise Ben Johnson would be in the Baseball Hall of Fame with a .800 batting average! 

Here's an idea, I'll run one sprint for every error the team makes and the coach runs one sprint for every "play" the team makes whether it's a hit, fouled off potential third strike, fielded grounder, well executed backup, all the normal executed plays during the game that are not errors because they were made due to the practice and determination of the player, not the coach that started years before.  I'd venture to say the coach would be running sprints well into the night! 

Every coach makes some type of error during a game and I bet they don't make themselves run for that!?  And most of them are getting paid!  Or how about this...I'll run one sprint for every error I make, coach runs one for every good play, good pitch, out, stolen base, and even every time I swing!  After all it's because I put in the time to practice, work hard, and comitt, he/she make the play?

I agree with the team concept, work on weaknesses at practice and spend more time on the hitting machine vs sprints or laps.  And for mental mistakes...more than half the time at the younger ages it's the coach not getting them prepared...taking the time to point out the situation and ask "what are we going to do"?

The other side of it is that sometimes "paying" for your mistake helps you get past it.  Many mentioned players already feel bad, they don't need to be punished. 

I think it comes down to really knowing your players.  I've seen an entire team ASK to be punished in some way shape or form.  They know they messed up and they needed to "pay" for it somehow, not just work harder on it for next time.  Many felt that next time now was even more important and had more pressure because it had to make up for next time.

Issuing out a sprint can be a little cleaner.  Player knows they screwed up, coach knows they screwed up, they pay for it, it's over and everyone moves on MENTALLY.  That's important.

I even asked my 14yo daughter what she preferred.  If you know you messed up, coach knows you messed up, you swung and high balls and let good ones go as is clearly not what you're trained to do, would you rather be given 5 sprints and pay for it or would you rather have your coaches talk/scold you about it.

She absolutely didn't want the verbal scolding!  She'd rather run and be done.  She said most times when coaches "talk about it" it goes on and on and on and on and often isn't over that day but continues on to the next practice.  It doesn't have the same, it's over, it's done, let's move on and get better feel. 

Again, I'm not for the crazy long drawn out running/physical exercise type thing, but something reasonable and well communicated, understood, and trained for can be useful. 

Some adults agree that physical pain helps emotional pain. When a player is feels bad, sometimes if they have that physical challenge it helps them feel like it's paid for...like "I deserved that.  I needed that.  Now let's start over."

Just another side of it.

Interesting.  I usually agree 100% with Ken's articles.  This one I agree with some areas and not entirely with other. 

I completely and totally agree that you do not punish the team because of a loss.

I also agree that mistakes are necessary for learning and developing, however, most mistakes that have little consequence are RARELY learned from. 

I agree that if your team is struggling in an area, you should address it in practice, however, I'm not sure I agree with substituting softball practice punishment for running is the best idea. 

I know a parent that used sports as punishment for his kids.  When they did something wrong they had to go outside and shoot 100 baskets or do 100 ground balls or something like that.  Then he wondered why they didn't continue playing even through high school. If sports was punishment for me, I may not have continued to play either.

Then there are parents who think if their kid strikes out on a change up, they suddenly need to spend hours upon hours upon hours upon hours every week working on change ups.  I've seen this happen, then what do you think happens when the kids STILL struggles on a change up in the game.  Now they think, "My goodness, I spend ALL that time working on hitting change ups and I still can't hit them. I must really suck."  Those of us that agree confidence and the mental approach is huge in hitting know how harmful that can be. 

As coaches, we need to be careful we don't go overboard like those parents and set our players up for even more detrimental negative self talk.  That highly negative self talk can more than undo the extra practice time on that skill. 

make the coaches run for their inability to teach these young individuals. at that age it is all about instruction and teaching. if the coaches can't instruct then step aside or better yet let them run, run, run, 

That's just ridiculas, I play on a dang 16u team and I've nevveeerr had to do such a thing. I dunno about you guys but y'all must not have a parent like mine because my mom woulda never let that happen. And I would've never done it anyway. Talk about crul punishment. Softball's supposed to be fun, coaches like that are the reason for the decrease in popularity in the sport. I'll never qut!

Danielle unknowingly proved JacksonJr's point that there is to much coddling of the young players these days-

 ". . .my mom woulda never let that happen.  And i would've never done it anyway. . ."

As former NCAA DI  and two- time all conference player, now an under 18 coach, I see plenty of talent and skill in the under 18's.  However, I see an alarming trend of talented players lacking in the ability to compete- not against opponents during a game, but ability to compete within the team.  These days, instead of competing for the starting position,  the parents will pull out the player and try-out for another team.  These potentially talented players usually play for multible teams with results always being the same.  Is this downward trend on the ability to compete a partial result that we, as a society, overprotect our children in the area of sports competition?

I know this post is off subject- running as punishment-  but the cause and effect of coddling our children should be is a valid topic.

Wow, to be blunt, there is a lot of "whining" being posted on this subject.  Marc starts by using the term "corporal punishment" (the act of inflicting bodily harm such as flogging or beating) because a coach made the team run sprints. That's a huge leap!   I don't use the term punishment.  I use the term consequences.  There is no running as a consequence on my teams for errors or look down strikes during the games because those are teachable moments, but I do use running and other methods as a form of disipline for other things such as team rule violations, goofing off, or lack of effort and intensity during games or practices.  This past high school season, my team as a whole actually loved to run, so my disciplinary methods did not include running or any form of conditioning. In any event, the antonym for "punishment" is "reward".  How many of you think it is okay to reward a player but not discipline a player?  With the exception of the newer coaches that usually coach at the rec level and are just volunteers still learning how to coach and instruct (lets cut them a little slack parents, we know you have never lost a game managing from the bleachers), there is "no one size fits all" to coaching methods and coaching ideology.  My take is practices are for training and instructing, games are for executing.  Teach the players to be competitive, teach them to be competitors.  After all, we all know that the field of competition is much like a mirror image of life where there is a ton of life lessons being learned on the field.  Yes, playing sports is supposed to be fun and should be fun, but let's not "coddled" our youth from coaches (insert teachers, mentors, future employers) that may be well intentioned, but in your eyes, going about it in the wrong way.

http://ctba.heb1.xibux.net/Sal... Make your love life diverse

Tips to keeping your love life going http://dealerstihl.pl/old.html

Well said.

Jacksonjr, it's the reason they had to run, and the timing of that running, that is objectionable. Again, I'm talking about 11 and 12 year olds being punished because they made errors or didn't perform the way the coaches wanted them to. My guess is, knowing the individuals involved, it wasn't about errors and mistakes. It was about losing and being mad they lost.

Incidentally, the coaches of this team rarely conducted practices during the off-season. They shouldn't be surprised their players made errors. Who was there to teach them not to?

Keep your wife delighted this night http://hanafi.kg/system.html

"Incidentally, the coaches of this team rarely conducted practices during the off-season. They shouldn't be surprised their players made errors. Who was there to teach them not to?"

I think this part makes the article completely different.  I can agree that if coaches expect unrealistic performance when THEY haven't taught their players, it is horrible.  Next time, I would suggest including this nugget in the original post.  A majority of coaches are NOT these types of coaches, especially ones that are on this board I believe.  I mean, if the coaches couldn't even pracgtice during the off-season, what makes you think they are reading blogs like this or anything else related to the game?

"It was about losing and being mad they lost." <= agree that this is completely unacceptable.

Ideally you never discipline or make a coaching decision out of anger or frustration.

"it's the reason they had to run, and the timing of that running, that is objectionable" <= agree

Quick correction - this article was written by Ken, not Marc.

Doing this makes as much sense as having a kid run laps if they miss the answer on a math or English test. It is easier to punish than to coach and teach.

The best method to satisfy your lover http://kare.web.tr/lip.html

The true desire is almost for nothing http://heberges.fr/hole.html

But wouldn't you give your child a consequence if he/she isn't applying themselves and repeatedly fails tests?

I do. May not be running laps, but I will assign extra jobs around the house at times which is probably less related to school than running is to softball.

For doing their best and not getting an A, no I wouldn't use a consequence.

If they choose not to do what they know they should there should be a consequence no?

The whole "no punishment" should be ever be given for mistakes blanket statement I sincerely hope is NOT the way adults are guiding our young adults today!

Punishment is for attitude, not performance!

Hi all.  I just wanted to comment on the crime and punishment.  I was a VERY successful girls Little League 12s, Big League and competitive coach 16-18s.   I am NOT the subject of this article, but we did this very thing.  The differance is, it was not labeled punishment.  We ran the old game of half the team on 2nd, half on home and yell go, they run a lap chasing the other runner, tag the next one when they get back to their base/plate.  5 errors and one called strike, everyone gets 6 laps.  But you know what, they had a ball with it. Their goal was to catch up and tag the other runner before they finished.  Sometimes they did, most times not.  And alot of times they asked to do it again, double or nothing sort of thing.  They didn't realize it was hidden conditioning.  When we were done, we stretched and cooled down while we talked.  Thats where we would say, ok we had "6" errors/laps today, next game we work on 5 or less.  It worked like a charm. I believe it worked with all these girls so well because it wasn't labeled "punishment" and no screaming or put downs involved.  We started it from day one at practice.  We run after practice anyway for conditioning, so we turned it into a goal setting thing for the games. Many times our girls, even my 18s finished with zero errors/laps, lost the game, and were excited they beat their goal.  Twice in LL, we won these particular games, but still ran for our errors etc.  As we were lining up to run, the other teams coach asked if they could run with us as the opposers.  It was so cool and they had fun. It was the "norm" to run sprints after practice, so we just used the error thing as an incentive or gauge for game day sprints.    Coach A

Like!

If that was my daughter I'd be looking for a new team with coaches that encourage growth, through teaching how they can avoid those mistakes the next time. A true love and passion for ball will not come from intimidation, but rather from hard work and having fun.

Wow ! I didn't think today coaches still think this way. Our job is to facilitate the best team spirit possible and work with each players to develop their skills so they become the best they can be, considering that each has different hot buttons and way of learning. Thanks for sharing this article and thoughts.

MOst of the time making a team run means the coach is not a real coach and has no other answer so they run. Making a kid run for not swinging the bat or making a physical mistake is just plain stupid.  Sometimes maybe once a year it is a wake up call but you must time it well and that all plays into a mental frame you are trying to adjust. Experienced coaches can use it to thier advantage when not over useing it but most of the time it is just becasue a coach can't coach.

"Sometimes maybe once a year it is a wake up call but you must time it well and that all plays into a mental frame you are trying to adjust. Experienced coaches can use it to thier advantage when not over useing it but most of the time it is just becasue a coach can't coach." <= agree

Question: Is not swinging a bat always a physical mistake or a mental one?

At some age levels it is still being learned. At higher competitive levels.....?

I agree 100%.
If there is an attitude problem, deal with that in practice. If players are making wrong choices, where to throw the ball during a play, they must be taught that too-in practice. When players make errors, they usually know it and feel bad already. Those instances should be used as teachable moments.  I don't believe punishing the entire team for individual mistakes builds up the players. It is like a teacher punishing the class for a few misbehavers. There are very few situations where mistakes were made by players that the coach couldn't share a small part of the problem.
Softball should be fun and the coach(es) should behave and conduct themselve in a character and nature that is respected; someone the players can look up to and emulate. Coaches I know and see who make their team run after a loss or mistakes are usually mean-spirited and really are not the kind of person I would want to coach me or my own kids.

http://www.laagenciaquequeremo... Take your lady to the 7th sky

http://bg.pcrit.net/opinion.ht... Are you ready to impress your girl at night?

"I don't believe punishing the entire team for individual mistakes builds up the players."

There are times when having the whole team "pay" helps get the point across that EACH persons actions and choices affect the WHOLE team. When one person makes a bad choice or decision in a game the TEAM pays. If you can illustrate that in a very easy-to-see way, they players get the idea faster. You don't have to do it a lot if you get the point across quickly on a manner the my can understand.

Sometimes just telling them that their choice to sulk or hang their head in the dugout doesn't get through. They "hear" and "know" it but when it's made very clear in other ways (punishment for the whole team for certain individual errors) - it's a one time message that's not forgotten very quickly.

Example - we gave the girls 2 minutes for water break. As time wound down, the girls were notified that there were 30 seconds left. Most girls hustled it back out. A few took their time, walked back out, and ended up being late.

For every second they were late (15 in that case) EVERYONE did a pushup.

They were never late again and always hustled in and out of breaks. One time message for lasting positive results.

Now the punishment wasn't so much that they were late (result), but that they didn't hustle (process). If they had had to use the bathroom during the break and sprinted there, used it quickly, sprinted back and still been late, I wouldn't have issued a consequence for that. While the result (being late) was not what I wanted the process (hustle) was.

In the cases you describe, I would agree with those consequences. Lack of hustle, bad attitudes, etc. are a whole lot different than making errors in the game. If I call my players in during practice and they walk instead of run, I send them back to where they were and tell them to do it again. If they still walk, I tell them I assume they don't know how to run and we will therefore spend the practice running.

But to punish them for errors? That is ridiculous. Look at it this way. If the coach makes a mistake, sends a runner home when he/she shouldn't and the player is out, should the coach be made to run sprints in front of the other teams, their parents, etc. right after the game? If the coach fails to teach the players how to handle a certain situation and it goes bad, should the coach have to run laps? What's good for the goose...

"to punish them for errors?" <= Agree.  I am hard on lack of hustle, poor attitude, etc.  Punishment with error as a reason I don't do.  :)

Oh, and I haven't done it in the past few years with having a baby and all, but usually, if my team runs, I run with them :D.  Players rather not see me in running shoes when I come to practice.  lol

As an avid runner, and coach, i find it hard to equate running as a form of punishment when it should be considered a sport just like softball is considered a sport. Running should be used as a form of conditioning and not punishment. Why would a coach punish players with running due to mistakes yet tell the players to stretch and run before practice because it's good for them? Young or old, one will eventually disassociate pleasure with the act of running. I did my 7 miles this morning before work and felt great during and after. If a coach had punished me as a young athlete with running due to mistakes, i might not enjoy running today. That coach has other issues beyond the team losing games. Thanks Marc. 

So do you agree with Ken's suggestion of practicing more softball skills instead of running as a results of poor performance.  Now the game and practice of the game becomes "punishment" in a way.  Is that what we want?

absolutely agree that running should not be used as a form of punishment. i am finishing up another team but this time with a team manager that has 40 years softball experience including playing at the collegiate level. the concept administered maintains that a loose team plays better. players expecting punishment for mistakes does not make for a loose team. and besides, this is just a game right? last time i checked it was.  thanks.

No, I was asking if you agree with the idea of an hour of ground balls or fly balls instead of running.  Now they may not dislike running, but how are they going to start feeling about fielding?

i "punish" the girls at practice when they seem to be making too many errors.  jumping jacks and sprints are a good motivational tool to stay focused.  i also "rewrd" the kids when we have a great practice.

http://hanafi.kg/farm.html You can have pleasure 3 times a night

http://kmcwebtasarim.com/my.ht... Do you want to satisfy your beloved one every night?

Good use of BOTH positive and negative reinforcement. When it's consistent and the girls KNOW what's expected it can be useful.

Remember to focus on not so much the error, but why it happened. Did they forget to communicate? Did they focus too long on the last play? etc

Address the cause with them too so it can be prevented next time.

Actual punishment using running, exercise (pushups - situps, etc.) should only be used as discipline for continued lack of effort  or attitude problems, disrespect. You need to have some sort of consequence for those types of issues. You could also use benching. If it's a continual problem you may have to ask the player(s) to leave the team. It should be used at the teams private practices and not after a game situation. Publicly humiliating players/team after they've got their heads down after a loss is counterproductive and just mean.

As long as the players are trying their best and hustling there's no need for that type of punishment. Practicing harder and longer and discussing areas that need improvement, focus, less errors, etc. is a better alternative. But you do need to let them know that the reason their parents are paying for them to play and spending all their weekends at tournaments and weekdays practicing is so they can improve and be competitive. If they aren't getting better and playing better in games each season they might want to ask themselves why they are playing in the first place. If they want to play just for fun they can play Recreational ball.

Gametime is pressure time and it's good to simulate pressure in practice. I do tell my players "if we can throw and catch around the horn 20 times without an error" we will take a break. I'll give you three times to do it and if you can't - we are doing 20 push-ups or a suicide. We do it as a team and it's not as a mean-spirited punishment but as a motivation to focus. It's also just good exercise.

There's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. When used properly and in conjunction with praise you can strike the right balance. 

http://keyhumantalent.com/welc... Are you ready to see her pleased tonight?

http://stepvideo.it/worse.html Demonstrate your potence

I totally agree with this post. I do believe there IS a place for "negative" reinforcement. BUT this does not mean that you don't teach or instruct.

It comes as something you use alongside of teaching and training.

If you teach and train your players to do things and they choose not to, I don't see anything wrong with a consequence.

If they constantly show up late or choose to jog to first instead of sprint or have attitude and effort issues, there will most certainly be a consequence - win OR lose.

At some point there needs to be accountability. When you train to swing at anything close and it is made CLEAR by the coach what is expected and what the consequence will be, I do not have much problem with a coach implementing that at a certain level (not for beginning inexperienced players).

You should always teach, then train (make sure they are able to perform the desired action under pressure) before EVER using consequences IF you are going to use a consequence on a results basis.

For other things under a players control (hustling or not for example) it's unacceptable and there WILL be consequences.

Yes, I fully believe mistakes are necessary for learning. The same is true in life. However, in life when we make mistakes, it "hurts" in some way shape or fashion. If it doesn't hurt at all, we learn very little. I'm learning that our BIGGESt mistakes that come with the most "pain" are often the birth of the most awesome positive changes. They become the experiences that motivate us to push ourselves to a better place - even if that means HARD work and busting our butts!

So sometimes, I do believe it is a coaches job to make certain mistakes "painful" enough that players never want to make them again and make it a point to get better!

For some, striking out looking at a perfect pitch while swinging at awful ones (even though good pitch selection is trained in practice) isn't "painful" enough in itself to effect major change in a player. After all many hitters "fail" 7 out of 10 times at bat. When it doesn't matter how you fail and that kind of failure ia just as acceptable as one where the player actually makes great decisions in an at bat, we're allowing behaviors we don't want.

Yes, for the most part it may be better to practice the skill more, but part of me dislikes using hitting as "punishment" for hitting.

Hitting is very mch mental and if you end up with any negative slant on hitting because it's been used to "punish" you, it may negatively affect performance. Also, many mental game experts will tell you, overtraining while in a slump usually only makes the slump worse.

If there is a technical aspect to correct, by all means maybe you dedicate a bigger slice of your time and maybe a little extra time overall to it. I do think there can be negative impacts if you decide to do a 4 hour hitting marathon because your team isn't hitting. Again - I dont agree much with results based consequences innthe first place though.

Bottom line is, I do think there is a right and wrong way to implement consequences in your coaching. JMHO

Hi there,

I do not totally agree that every punishment for mistakes is wrong.
I am from Germany, I used to coach a team U14 as well as a team consisting of girls at all ages who already played some time. I always considered the age of the girls. I haven't punished those young girls, who just started to play Softball.
Sure, direct this punishment for called third strikes makes also no sense in my opinion.
But having the girls run for the scored errors in a game is an acceptable "punishment" for me. Do not get me wrong: we always talked about all the stuff after the games, and the girls knew that erros are "allowed".
We used the amount of errors as the amount of sprints or pole-sprints as running for conditioning.

Making errors on bad technique I always kind of took on my shoulders as I failed to teach them the right mechanics. But making mental mistakes because not being concentrated allow some (acceptable!) punishment.
Best regards from Germany!

My daughter had a high school coach who loved to punish her girls this way.Her freshman year playing Varsity.If they lost they would run with bats over their heads in the rain...put on a bus for the ride home,made to sit 1 girl to seat and not aloud to speak the entire ride home.These girls knew when they made a mistake what they were in for at the next practice.All would be punished for one girls error.Created alot of animosity amongst the girls because the weaker members of the team were the target constantly.(by the coach andteam mate,She would actually encourage the other kids to shun them if they didnt perform well)Enough parents took a stand to have her dismissed after 2 seasons...Ironically,she coaches at another school in the area now.Why would abuse ever be acceptable to parents,coaches,the school? Breaking kids doesnt make a better ball player.

All of that sounds awful.  Glad the parents took a stand. 

Amazing that coaches continue to use these methods. There is never a positive outcome when athletes of any age are punished for making mistakes. The errors and the watching of called 3rd strike go right back to the coach. Spend more time on fundamentals and 2 strike hitting. If an athlete is trying they are going to make mistakes. This is a large part of the learning process. Someone needs to have a calm conversation with this coach about his methods. If this is a league he should be required to take more coaching education courses. I teach many in my area and I believe they should be a requirement to coach at any level.

I see all the comments below and agree to a certain extent.  However, how do you deal with mental mistakes?  If a team practices perfect, but when game time comes they make mental mistakes that cause losses.  I could care less if a team I coach wins or loses because of physical mistakes. But when they lose and then bitch that they lost without taking ownership for the mistakes they have 100% control of, that sets me off.

As long as we have coaches there will be good coaches and bad coaches. A coach who "punishes" his/her team will never experience success. In order to have a successful program you must teach and build with fundamentals. As a long time high school coach I deal with the athletes that have been punished for making mistakes instead of having the fundamentals taught and stressed. Running should only be used as a conditioning tool. It's a coach who's looking for a shortcut that would punish instead of teach. 

It's amazing at how many coaches think that what you described is acceptable and even good coaching. What's more amazing is that there are parents who suggest this to a coach when the team doesn't win. And, if the coach doesn't do this, that parent thinks the coach doesn't do a good job.

With our 12 U team, we meet and talk after every game. Most of the discussion is about what we did well and what we need to work on, win or lose. We stress with our athletes that this is a "work in progress" and it always will be! We try to focus on , what lessons we have learned.

Again, some parents think we aren't "tough enough." They want their daughters called out on mistakes. They want them running laps, even though it does no good.

On a side note, we saw a college coach make her team run for a solid hour in the cold and rain after a loss one day. It was a first year coach. The next day her team came out and.....lost again.

It's funny.  My daughter's coach used to make them run after game for taking 3rd strikes.  This was a very clearly laid out expectation and something they trained for on their 18U team. 

This year, he went away from that.  My daughter has struck out looking more in the first few weeks of this season than the entire last season.  I wanted to tell him to make her run.  She's the type that is so much more focused if she knows there is a specific consequence for a specific infraction.  She like challenges and absolutely will make it a point to choose good pitches and swing at those 3rd strikes IF she has a reason to.  With no consequence, the need to be great there isn't as urgent. 

Yes, it would be great if it would just come from inside.  With her I've witnessed that they sprint consequence doesn't discourage her at all.  She LOVES physical challenge and she doesn't take it as "pressure."  I saw a lot more focus in her playing when there were consequences that went along with not doing as trained. 

Now going crazy and doing one hour of high intensity exercise for one mistake is not what I'm talking about.  Neither is dishing out punishment only when the game goes bad.  Reasonable consistent guidelines that are clearly communicated and understood, I feel, can be helpful.

Why isn't striking out consequence enough?  As a player, I took getting out (or making errors) hard.  With my teams, we try to use each at bat, good or bad, as a learning experience the player can grow from.  If a player takes a third strike (or swings at a bad pitch) we talk about it and use it as an opportunity to improve.  If they wait on a change up and drive it up the middle, we talk about that success too.  We try to talk about it right after it happens (or between innings) and then again after the game as a team.  If we identify a trend, many times I will lead the discussion so the players (at least think they) are helping come up a with a plan to overcome it, so they buy into it more.  Like I said, we treat these "failures" as an opportunities for the players to reach their goals, goals each player has identified in the beginning of the season.

So she struck out looking more"...since she doesn't have to run.....did you track quality at bats prior to that? Or were you just happy she didn't strike out looking. How about the umpires strike zone....was it really a strike, or should it have been a ball a she should have walked?

I'll only support a coach who has the guts to stand out in front of the team, and the crowd and say loudly......that he/she made a mistake. we call the team members out all the time in public, let's see the coaches call theirselves out when they make a mistake.........(I have done this myself.)

and players are getting paid millions of dollars to hit less than 3 out of ten times....and they practice all the time.....and we get on our kids if they don't hit, or do exactly what we expect every time. Flipping amazing!!!!

the title of this and what most are referring to in these posts are "punishment". doesn't that seem ironic!!!!! Kids come to us to learn, enjoy the game etc. And we can't seem to be able to handle situations without punishment.

Most coaches coach like they were coached, and that ain't always good. coaching is a life skill, not a god given talent... If you never change your coaching philosophy as you progress in your career, you ain't much of a coach.

I've at this for over 35 years. I've seen good coaches and bad, more bad than good. I've seen coaches at all levels who are just outstanding, and those from D1 on down who just suck.

99% of the time when the word punishment is a reason for running, push up etc, it's a problem that the coach doesn't know how to handle properly, and lays the blame on the girls. Kids forget about losses and mistakes and are ready to move on and do stuff to fix the mistakes.....it's coaches who brood over losses, and mistakes.....sometimes to deflect blame from their own shortcomings, and because they are the ones who are more concerned about winning than the kids. Teaching a winning attitude is great, just do that......leave punishment out of the equation.

Do you wish to satisfy your girl every night? http://clickmetro.com.br/stage...

We tell the girls that there are some things they can't control, bad calls, etc. We tell them they can control their attitude and hustle and how they react to adversity.

My husband and I coach together. We, like you, are not afraid to say when we make a mistake. We do this to show the kids that NO ONE is perfect, it's how we react or handle our mistakes that matter.

We had a game the other day that we lost by one run on a suicide bunt. Our pitcher fielded the ball and then looked at one ( she was going to check the runner and then go home). The runner was halfway home when she did that. She was devastated. She blamed herself for the game ( she forgot the two errors that let the tying run and winning run on base.) When we talked after the game, we talked about how no ONE thing lost us the game and that we win and lose as a team.Then,my husband said, " I'll take some of the blame. I should have reminded you before the pitch." Then, one of the girls said, " We should have yelled four to let you know." Once we talked about the game as a learning situation, the girls took it in stride and moved on.

If it was a bad call it's not the players fault, no punishment. That is not something they control.

Quality at bats since last June (I started paying attention because she as about to start high school)...
Hit .454 as lead-off (10 for 22). Struck out twice (once on a high ball that was called). Walked 4 times.

Next season hit .400 (14 for 35) as #2 hitter, 3 strikeouts, 5 walks.

This season 0-10, 8 strike outs, all looking.

So no, not looking only at not striking out looking. More than her current performance is expected because she's done quite a bit better before and already shown that she's capable of more. As I said, I feel it's a lack of focus/effort at this time this the reason I feel a consequence is warranted. So far there has been no consequence, just working on it at practice and talking about what she did wrong and what she can do better. Something different needs to happen IMO.

I'm in complete agreement that issuing out punishment for losing is unacceptable. So is punishing physically or OTHERWISE players for making mistakes in areas you do not teach or have not covered

I disagree with coaches who get on their catchers for passed balls when try never work on catcher skills for example. That catcher should NOT be getting harped on or yelled at (consequence) for something the coach doesn't work with her on...or coaches who put players in one position at practice and another in the game then get on them for mistakes.

I also do not believe a single type of consequence will work for EVERY team. You have to know your team. You have to know what will motivate them. You have to know what they are capable of and what they are still learning. So I completely agree that EACH season, sometimes even within the season, you can't just stick to ONE teaching or motivation method. It's soooo important that you KNOW your team and what they can do and what they respond to.

As far as coaches, most coaches I know feel worse about coaching mistakes they make than they ever felt about a mistake they made while playing.

Not only do you let down your team down as a leader, but you also know you have a whole bunch of people saying nasty things about you in the stands and beyond. Most difficult is dealing with repercussions of your actions and choices on your players the position you out them in and how they respond to you.

Second to that is dealing with parents who feel they know your team and the game better than you do.

Any coach who cares has far bigger consequences than sprints could ever do. If I could run a sprint for every coaching mistakes and everyone would forget about it and move on, I'd GLADLY choose that over the "natural" consequences of coaching.

But that's assuming a coach cares that much. For those who think players don't need any consequences for their mistakes you are also assuming they care that much.

From my experiences in coaching for close to half my life, often times less than half the team cares THAT much where they don't need pushing from you. The rest need a little help. They have to learn the hard way that their mistakes affect everyone. If you aren't there to provide the lesson they will be a thorn in everyone's side all season long.

Again, for younger players 10-12 we're focused mostly on PROCESS not results. I do believe there ought to be consequences/punishment for poor process and poor attitude.

Some choose to go straight to reducing playing time (that IS a consequence). Others will try another method first.

Stacie, Different athletes require different motivation. However, I don't think that physical consequences are neccessarily the TOTAL answer. I don't know how old your daughter is ( Did you say 18U?), but our 11-12 year old athletes would rather do ANYTHING than let down their team, their parents, and their coaches. That's a consequence. Please don't think we challenge our athletes or provide discipline, we do. Running laps and doing push ups are not the normal method we choose.

We have very specific expectations and we constantly communicate them to the girls. There are consequences if they don't meet those expectations. I think the consequences have to be based on common sense.
 
We view mistakes as a chance to instruct. That means our kids get feedback, positive and negative.  If a kid keeps making the same mistake over and over again and doesn't make a change, then one consequence is playing time. That doesn't mean a kid doesn't get another chance, but we may have her take a seat or move her out of the position she plays. That usually will get her attention and will also allow her to refocus. We always accompany that consequence with an explanation.

We don't think we coddle our athletes. They work hard, play hard and do a good job. We constantly talk about
challenging themselves as players and as a team.  Most of the time, they do.
 
 

"Different athletes require different motivation. However, I don't think that physical consequences are neccessarily the TOTAL answer."

I totally agree with you!

Consequences period are NOT the total answer. I also agree that consequences for a 12 year old are probably going to be different than those for older players. Just as consequences for kids in general (at home) are different at different ages.

You mention reduction in playing time as a consequence. I agree that is what usually happens when players don't improve, correct, or make adjustments.

However, I also know that playing less is one thing a player, and often a parent, doesn't want. Personally, I would like a sort of "get back on track" consequence before it gets to that point.

I'm interested in hearing what kind of disciplinary methods you use besides reduction in playing time.

I've heard a LOT of players say they're afraid to make mistake because they know they could lose their spot. I've seen more play scared because of that than because they may have to do a few push-ups or run a couple sprints.

Some look at the additional push ups or running as a way to get in a little extra work on their strength or speed which can help them improve as an athlete.

Players who would rather do ANYTHING than let down their teammates, coaches, and parents will already be HIGHLY motivated to never ever experience that feeling again.

In that case they already have a big enough consequence to effect change and work hard toward a better goal.

However, when that in itself doesn't do it, what do you suggest?

I guess there are two different kind of problems that a coach needs to deal with. In the first problem, you have a kid who gives it her all,but, for one reason or another, makes a mistake. For that kid, it is definitely not going to help if you punish her because she already feels bad enough. That is a kid that you have to build confidence with. Threatening to take her out will just make her play scared as you said.

I think the kid you're referring to is the one who needs a "wake up call." For that kid, I think the first recourse is to point out the behavior and tell them how you want them to correct it.  If it happens again, then I think that you have to adjust to the situation. In practice, you can have the athlete repeat the skill until it is corrected. If it's a game, then you may have to say, "The next time it happens, we are going to make a change." This gives the athlete time to fix the problem. Then, if it happens again, they have to come out. That is usually enough to get the girl to make the adjustment.

"In the first problem, you have a kid who gives it her all,but, for one
reason or another, makes a mistake." <= this should NEVER be punished!

"The next time it happens, we are going to make a change." <= this goes back
to Ken's point about holding a gun to their heads. Most players I know
would rather run a sprint than be taken out of the lineup. The threat of
losing playing time is even more pressure for most players. This is why I
think issuing out a consequence first, see if that helps player get a little
more serious about their focus and complete engagement in what they are
doing in practice and in the game. If still nothing, coach will eventually
be forced to make a replacement which is one of the ultimate consequences
for a player.

Most of what Ken's describes in the article (the types of punishments and
the reasons why) he's completely right about. I just don't necessary agree
that consequences = fear of failure and no consequences = improving mental
toughness and removing fear of failure.

I'm also not completely convinced of the blanket statement that physical
consequences such as a few extra sprints or push ups or jumping jacks is
NEVER useful.

Stacie, I don't know if you realize it but you're illustrating exactly why punishment like this doesn't work. Your say your daughter stopped not swinging at third strikes when she had a consequence. But the minute the consequence was pulled away she went back to her prior behavior. If the only way she will swing at that third strike is when she's forced to by consequences I would say the technique is a collossal fail.

A better approach would be to change her thinking. Find out why she isn't swinging at the third strike (often ironically it's fear of striking out) and work on that. It will yield a much better long-term result.

Actually this didn't happen "as soon as the consequence was removed."

She played two other seasons under a different coach who doesn't do punishments for school without much of the problem with this particular issue.

I agree it's more of a mindset and/or lack of focus issue, but if there is no consequence for lack of focus, how do you change the mindset when there is no reason to (consequence)?

What's the other "natural" consequence that typically occurs because of hitting issues that don't improve? Less playing time.

Often usually what happens is the player drops in the lineup until they are out of it.

I'd rather have a "get back on track" consequence in addition to working on it in practice before the out of the lineup consequence occurs.

"Find out why she isn't swinging at the third strike (often ironically it's fear of striking out) and work on that."

Also agree on finding & working on issue, which is likely mental since this was never a "prior behavior" either and, since switching to left a few years ago, doesn't swing and miss much. So the fact that it wasn't a prior behavior and didn't change as soon as the consequence was removed looks to me like more of a mental, lack of focus, lack of effort type issue. Lack of focus and/or effort in game situations is not acceptable to me, thus, the consequence.

Thanks for exposing this type of behavior.  For those of us who kids play,  we see it all the time. Problem is,  the coaches just don't get it.  On my daughters team,  when they lost at a tournement early,  the coach decided to have all the girls go back to our home field(which was 20 miles away) and have a 2 hour practice.  Punishment for not winning from the coaches.  We were punished too because he girls don't drive.  Thanks again for bringing this out in the open.  Too bad so many coaches are re-living there lives through our children because they couldn't do it the first time around.  This is why girls do quit softball around the age of 14.  Bad inconsiderate coaching!

Are you for real whining about a 20 mile drive  softball my not be your game. LOL!!

I totally agree with you if you have a consistent problem with hitting,flyballs ,baserunning ect during a tournament then the next practice should be geared  around the specific area that is a concern.Errors are going to happen and the worst thing you can do is harp on them especially during a tournament.Everyone wants to win but the girls reward for all the work they put in during the off season and practices should be enjoying the games and if they are being punished especially for physical errors it will eventually drive them away from softball.

MarK:
After 47 years of coaching and 21 with the SC Bandits 18U Gold, I think we have a great team philosophy.  After we win we go out and eat as a team.  When we lose, we go out and eat as a team.  When the game gets rained out, we go out and eat as a team.  When we play errorless ball, we go out after the game as a team and eat. When we commit errors and it cost us the game, we then go out as a team and eat.
Ken Bailey, Head Coach South Carolina Bandits 18U Gold

I agree with you you Ken I have been coaching since 1984 and the team spirit is most important.The reasons for not performing as well in the game as in practise is normally a lack of trust in their own skills and work should be done on their mental game

Last week we played a game against a team that played loud blaring music to start the game (Guns & Roses) and then loud music in between innings. They were not a great team but they beat us on a throwing error so we lost 5-4. When the last out was recorded, the music blasted again, this time Another One Bites the Dust. These losers were rubbing it in our faces and was completely uncalled for. What's worse, it was 8U. What a way to be such a poor role model to your players...

When we loose games the coach spends the first 30-50 mins of the next practice lecturing the team on how we let the whole team down and how with the skills we have we should be winning the league. Personally I'd rather be practicing then sitting listening to how much we messed up.

This isn't anything new. Just because someone is a coach doesn't automatically make them a decent human being. 

I agree with you 100%.

However if the pitcher pitches to the third base coach, the batter should swing because it will be a dropped third strike and the batter might even make it to second base if the ball bounces away off the fence. LOL of course.